mayhematician:

the-real-numbers:

shadowpeoplearejerks:

the-real-numbers:

Alrighty I’ve got some Opinions ™

“Advanced” mathematicians who mock important low-level realizations with “duh, that’s obvious (and beneath me), boring” should know that this sucks all the fun out of learning math, especially for beginners or people who typically struggle. That’s the best part of the experience! It’s what draws people to math and you once got excited about that too! You’re used to it by now and maybe you think the coolness has worn off, but I assure you it hasn’t. Don’t pass that attitude on to people making discoveries. That can seriously hamper their desire to learn, so it’s a dick move. Instead of being a cranky elitist, how about we use someone else’s wonder and excitement to remind us just how cool the things we are doing can be, and appreciate it with them instead of putting out that flame! If you join them and go “hell yeah I forgot how exciting that was, here’s more stuff about that!” You can make the both of you more excited to do math, which is probably a net positive.

Edit: people should be allowed to think whatever the fuck they want about math, this is just something that irks me.

Hi, this is exactly the problem. We’re making fun of the fact these realizations that you are gushing over are not important. We are not being cranky, you’re literally displaying fundamental misapprehensions about the value of mathematics. I know that you have these misconceptions because you reblogged this:

https://the-real-numbers.tumblr.com/post/172052020028/hi-i-was-just-wondering-what-some-of-your

It’s not that you are gushing over “easy to understand things” it’s that you get excited about incredibly shallow relationships between functions and constants.   And it’s obvious that that’s what you’re doing. It’s the mathematical equivalent of thinking that these stickers are great because hey, it’s a surprising connection between Garfield and works of classical horror literature:

https://store.freezetag.com/products/garfield-stickers-garfield-halloween-sticker-pack

But like…Garfield sucks, these stickers are kitschy garbage. And the stuff you are obsessed with is exactly that. And like, it’s absolutely okay to appreciate things almost exclusively on a shallow level, but it absolutely fucking isn’t if you are getting a degree in it. 

We’re not being elitist dude, you’re just acting like the really obnoxious camp counselor that thinks kid should be excited about the eggs served for breakfast that are so poor quality that the FDA gave them a grade of ‘weapons’ just because they’re at camp, and you show no inclination towards fixing that.    

Hi! You’re seeing responses from other people who are also blaming you for being a meanie-poo and while it may be tempting to say “oh that’s just reactionary, they’re still wrong” consider this – you, uh, didn’t actually say anything of substantiative value in your defense, and in effect it basically looks like (although it may not have been your intention) you’re doubling down on being an asshole just because. I don’t know if that’s what you intended to do. This response has a bit more backing up before it’s useful to changing my mind. If you can fill in the gaps I point out, I will gladly take you seriously, because it’s an interesting conversation.

Hi, this is exactly the problem. We’re making fun of the fact these realizations that you are gushing over are not important.

These “realizations” are on the path to fully understanding the topic, which is important, which makes them worth celebrating. Removing that excitement that builds until you finally get somewhere worth being? That’s foolish. The excitement’s not silly, it’s an incentive gradient to mastery. It has a purpose. That’s the first half of the post. Maybe the second half of my post is making it seem like an emotional appeal, but it really is a standalone statement.

To imply “nothing is as important as the whole picture” (which you haven’t actually stated, because you never actually defined your stance on anything other than “ha, get a load of this guy, he’s wrong and BAD”) would be a valid statement. But there’s nothing wrong with fully appreciating every step along the way. If there’s more to say here (which I imagine there is) you should say it.

We are not being cranky, you’re literally displaying fundamental misapprehensions about the value of mathematics.

Are you going to provide premises for your response and make an argument for what exactly “the value of mathematics” is? That would depend on your value system, your ideas about the philosophy of mathematics, it’s role in the sciences, and your personal experiences, all making it nearly impossible to defend fairly with the same level of confidence as your initial response. But nevertheless I think it’s the entire basis of your argument so you should definitely include that here. It’s kind of the thing I’m most interested in, and without it, your attitude is meaningless.

Uncharitability time: Elucidating your “”“”“advanced”“”“ positions here would also require someone from the snobbier side of the math community to (generally speaking) be anything but vague, elusive, and also make an argument that didn’t thoroughly depend on some sort of substanceless argument from authority or thoughtless put-downs (like here!). ¯_(ツ)_/¯ You all seem to have a lot of scorn for a lot of things. It’s a shame we’ll never actually know what you do approve of. Stick your neck out a little every once in a while and don’t be afraid to be wrong for short periods of time. It’s only temporary.

I’m going to ignore the hurricane-euler comment because you don’t really make much of an argument for what it meant, aside from “oh look he reblogged someone I disagree with so he’s got bad opinions.” I reblogged that post because it had stuff that might excite other math people. I mean, how did you bother scrolling back that far without seeing any of my original thoughts? (Which are neatly tagged! See #math opinions, we can politely discuss whatever you want.)

The last two examples you provided have one thing in common. Niether of them helped illustrate why these things are worth mocking, which is really the only point I would have expected you to make.

Instead, you give me an example of something completely subjective and assume I’m going to agree with you (symbolic!). Then you simultaneously assert that I only have a “shallow appreciation for math” and that it’s absolutely not okay for me.

1. I focus on supporting people entering math. I love to do that, and people who supported my entry to mathematics changed my life. Maybe that’s all you saw on your cursory 10 minute journey onto this blog, so I can’t fault you for that. I would say don’t mistake me for someone who doesn’t appreciate complexity and complications, I’ve held some sweet and successful research fellowships in both theoretical math and in industry already, and I intend to continue contributing to mathematics for a long time 🙂 I may not be a fucking pessimist like you but I can still kick all sorts of ass! You don’t have to be a killjoy to do that.
2. You also never really explain why “”“"shallowness”“”“ is a bad thing. I assume it’s not hard to make a semi-reasonable argument, though. But you should explain why it’s worth mocking at the expense of other’s desire to persue mathematics. Good luck with that bit though, I think you’ll look like a complete ass. Prove me wrong?

As for your last example, it’s got the same issues – you haven’t explained why the eggs are bad in any reasonable way. Besides, the eggs are fucking fantastic and normal people that aren’t stuck up love them, as evidenced by the fact that somehow there’s a shit ton of normal people that come back for seconds. So from this point of view, your analogy is deeply flawed, explains nothing, and seems like nothing more than you expressing your sheer unbridled rage for some pals just having some fun doing things they enjoy because they’re not as Advanced ™ as you. 🤷‍♂️

Hey, so, I’m gonna throw my two cents into the ring, for what it’s worth.

I’m gonna make an analogy. I’m a biologist as well as a mathematician (amateur in all things, mind). I think biology is absolutely the coolest. I get excited about everything, from ooh look that bug is eating that other bug to the complex reactions regulating photosynthesis with respect to light intensity in algae. It’s all cool to me.

I can get why some people might think that bug eating other bug is not something to get excited about. Maybe you’d like me to explain a little further, about how the bug will derive energy or why it’s doing that. And I can do that! But, while I’m doing that, I’m gonna be excited about the bug. Just because it’s simple doesn’t mean it’s not worth my time, or, indeed, my wonder.

That’s the other thing about it. Real and I do similar things: from a few stories up a tower of knowing, we try to coax people in. We want to share what excites and inspires us about what we do! But that’s the thing about pedagogy: you can’t just yeet your students ten stories up a tower. You have to meet people where they are. And if someone’s gateway drug to biology is whoa look a dragonfly decapitating another dragonfly I’m not going to shame them for not knowing about metabolic pathways or the evolutionary approach to entomological behaviour. Nah. I’m gonna be like isn’t that sick? Let’s learn more!

The same concept applies to math. We have to get people in on the ground floor, and we have to meet them where they are. And the other trick up my sleeve?

I’m also a camp counsellor. Yeah, we go on about the weapons-grade eggs. Do you know why we do that? I’ll give you a hint: it’s not because we like them. It’s because, if we say the eggs are gross, all the kids will say they’re gross, too. And then none of the kids will eat breakfast and they’ll be whining half an hour into canoeing. We’re not saying that you have to like the basics, the “simple” stuff. But when you call it stupid and put it down, and call other people stupid for liking it, they’ll start to believe it. Being knowledgeable about something, for better or for worse, makes you a bit of a role model. It’s not something to be taken lightly. But it doesn’t have to be a chore, either. In fact, it can be rewarding 🙂